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Why do you cling to IE5/Mac?

Friday October 21, 2005

Today, it would seem, all the users of Internet Explorer 5 on a Mac have conspired to get together to piss me off.

I saw a client today whose site I built about a year ago. We decided back then that because of what was required we’d go web standards but drop support for IE5 Windows and Mac, though it woulda been easier to do it in tables. They are happy overall and in about 12 months 4 or 5 Mac users have said they can’t log on.

One of those Mac users was there when the client told me this, I felt a bit bad afterwards, but I couldn’t help myself, I got really cross: So you are using OS X? Right, that’s good, so you are using one of the most advanced operating systems on the planet and yet you insist on using IE 5, why? WHY? I don’t think that person will ever hire me to build them a website but here’s betting they are using Safari of Camino by this evening.

Then I got home to another email, exactly the same thing different client but requesting I ensure it is fixed. Errrr, we discussed this, the design is not supported in IE5/Mac but the content is! Just because some fucking print designer, who continues to use nested tables and space gifs, insists that their websites work in IE5/Mac is not reason to start flapping and saying the website is totally broken.

Yes, Internet Explorer 5 on a Mac was a great browser but it is old, Microsoft aren’t moving it forward, it’s out of date, dead, finished, game over, you’ve got to let go, you’ve… got… to… move… on!

  1. Craig

    1021 days ago

    Well put.

  2. Dustin Diaz

    1021 days ago

    I believe I might have been the first.

    good+bye+ie5

    Simply adding @import”style.css”; will do the trick for both ie5 on mac and win. I just dont’ see it worth the trouble anymore. Box model hacks just seem silly now that we’re moving full force into 2006 with Microsoft just right around the corner from releasing IE7.

  3. Thom

    1021 days ago

    As a good friend of mine would say “It’s like tring to educate pork!”

  4. Martin Smith

    1021 days ago

    ...and what about the bastards who still use IE5 on system 9.2!! I have a client who is requesting I make his site work on IE5 under system 9.2!!!!

    ”...i’ts ‘cos we have to use Quark 4….” they tell me! Fuck me! Quark have screwed up it’s upgrade program so badly that the entire print industry is locked into Mac OS9.2 for the sake of compatibility.

  5. Craig

    1021 days ago

    @Martin Smith
    If you’re making it work for IE 5 on OS 9 then you might as well make it work in Aweb for the Amiga.

  6. Arif

    1021 days ago

    It’s always a pleasure to see you rant like so.

  7. monkeyinabox

    1021 days ago

    Because the average person uses what comes installed with their computer. The average user isn’t always upgrading to the newest operating system. The average user doesn’t know what web standards are and why they should care about them. The average user remembers a movie called Firefox starring Clint Eastwood and that’s enough of that subject for them.

    That’s why!

  8. Ronnie Garcia

    1021 days ago

    I work for an Web Design company that goes through a vigorous QA process for all our sites and IE 5 on the Mac is the single-most problematic browser during all our tests.

    Anyone using a Mac should be on OSX and using Safari. If you’re not, you shouldn’t be surfing the Internet. Technology is constantly evolving and anyone using a browser that is so old and non-compliant shouldn’t expect new technologies to display correctly.

    I have constantly pushed to remove IE 5 on Mac from our QA, but they won’t listen to me. Please people, give it up.

  9. jordan

    1021 days ago

    At school, we have shitloads of Macs running OS 10.3, and at least half the people dig round in the hard drive to open IE—it’s not even on the dock, but they’ll find it, rather than using Safari. I’m not sure if they don’t realise what Safari is (can’t blame ‘em), or if they’re just insistent…

    In fact, there’s one girl that will have Safari open on her station from the previous person, but will get IE from the applications folder. It completely blows my mind.

  10. Mats Lindblad

    1021 days ago

    I always point out that even msn.se is broken in IE5/Mac but that doesn’t seem to help. And it’s illegal to hit a client … but … the’re stupid … oh well, i’ll go find a bag to hit or something.

  11. richard

    1021 days ago

    One of the issues I have come across on many occasions is clients and users who don’t know what a ‘web browser’ is. Really – clients who hire me to build a site for them that are not familiar with the term. When I explain it’s an application for viewing web pages, like for example Internet Explorer, they finally get it. Most of them don’t even know there is an alternative. IE is built into their computer and hardwired from the word go.

    The ones that have heard of Macs think they are possibly not really fully fledged computers but sort of trendy cliquey ‘designers computers’ that maybe only do design or something and are REALLY expensive.

    So there you have it.

  12. Chris McElligott

    1021 days ago

    I ditched IE… wait I never used IE 5. I’ve been an OS X users since 10.0.4 and back then I used Omniweb. What moron would use it nowdays?

  13. Paul

    1021 days ago

    I refuse to do it anymore and if clients can’t see the reasoning and go elsewhere then so be it. Why should we support a browser that isn’t supported by the people that make it. As if our job isn’t hard enough with all the other browsers and versions of IE around!

    What cheeses my wing more though is clients that pay you money for what are actually very specialist services then turn around and tell you how to do you job and ignore your experience and advice! I’m sure they wouldn’t get a plumber in and then tell them how to connect the heating system! What am I saying – of course they would!

    Had a lot of client bullshit this week! Ranting over!

  14. Nice Paul

    1019 days ago

    People who use IE5/Mac are probably recent PC-Mac converts, who have always used IE/Win and so immediately download it for their new Mac. As far as they know, IE is the best. After all, it’s what they’ve always used with no problems on their PC.

  15. Doug Bowman

    1019 days ago

    monkeyinabox: Because the average person uses what comes installed with their computer.

    Aha, but with the latest OS, 10.4, Tiger, (and with all moving forward) IE5 is no longer included as a default installed browser at all. If users really want it, they’ll need to go fishing around Microsoft’s site for the download.

    I had to do this recently after completing a clean install of Tiger. And I noticed Microsoft is slowly making IE5/Mac more difficult to find. I had to hunt around for it myself. Common users won’t do this. They’ll give up or just use what’s available to them.

    So hang in there John. It’s only a matter of time as the long tail upgrades their OS. But for OS9/Quark users. Hmph… the web moves forward, and they need to as well.

  16. Daniel Nicolas

    1019 days ago

    What do you sacrifice to have the bleeding edge? When does the then bleeding edge become the normal? Why don’t those damn people upgrade their computers?

    I feel the pain.

  17. Benson Low

    1018 days ago

    Daniel Nicolas: Why don’t those damn people upgrade their computers?

    Simply due to economics and social classes. If they can’t afford it or knowledgable to update/move on, then it really not their problem. They will always think “Well, it works with all these other websites. Why not this one? Must be the website’s fault.” They would never think its the browser problem, nor should they.

    Until most of the web goes standard-based websites, many people will continue to use what works mostly for them. Ignorance is bliss.

  18. nortypig

    1018 days ago

    Its not a feeling I like but reading your post made me get that sick feeling in my stomach that comes on when the same email / phonecall / whatever with IE5 Mac in the title arrives. Please fix now – for free.

    Its made worse when its decided in advance not to support it – or not to pay you to support it – but then they want it fixed for free.

    So I sympathise. Maybe we could have a black armband day around the world to raise awareness of the death of IE5 Mac? We could burn effigies in parks and other stuff. You’ve got more profile than I have so you might get that one going.

    And it would be fun ay!

  19. Rachael

    1018 days ago

    Daniel Nicolas: Why don’t those damn people upgrade their computers?

    I’m in the 0.0001% (guesstimate) who still owns a Mac clone that cannot be upgraded beyond OS9.1. I object to the “throw it away and buy a new one” ethos, particularly when it works fine and dandy for the basics like email and my kids’ favourite games.

    At least, though, I’m aware of the problem and assume it’s the browser rather than the site that’s the issue when I encounter stuff that doesn’t work. (And I have other computers to pick from).

    For those “stuck” on OS9, maybe the answer is education about alternatives: there was a thread about this on the Web Standards Group a few months back. According to that, there’s an early Netscape 7 and iCab 3.0 that will both run well on OS9.

  20. Dave J. Lowe

    1018 days ago

    I work at a university, and IE 5 Mac is one of my biggest frustrations as well. Not that the visiting public is using it (though how would I know… web stats here have been inaccessible for 2 years now!) but rather SO many people around campus. Nine times out of ten, I get a complaint about something not working and it turns out the person was using IE 5 Mac.

    It’s especially bad when that someone copies everyone they can think of, so I have to do triple the work to assure everyone it’s not an issue.

    I view it as my personal mission here to educate everyone I can to abandon IE 5. I’m guessing I’m around a dozen or two by now, but it will never be enough…

    By the way, I emailed Gap Inc about their sites blocking Safari users out, and they emailed back saying sorry, they’re aware that Mac IE users can’t get in and their developers are working on it. Oh and if you’re using Safari, go download Firefox.

    I’m still in a state of shock from that. (I replied with some percentages of those using Mac IE vs Safari and told them to get their developers on supporting the correct browser).

  21. Mark Johnson

    1018 days ago

    Good news: IE5/Mac DOA on 1/1/06

    You can now tell your clients that IE5/Mac is absolutely terminally ill, and tell them, “Microsoft doesn’t support IE5/Mac anymore, so why should you?”

    Microsoft officially ended development of IE5/Mac in 2003, but has contined to “support” it.

    The M$ IE Mac FAQ says that M$ still “supports” IE5 (see
    http://tinyurl.com/ojyb), and even offers a helpful-if-it-weren’t-dead link to their support “policies”. (One wonders in what sense Microsoft is using the word “support” here.)

    Microsoft site search produces no information about when or whether IE5/Mac support might be ending. But half-hour of Googling produced the smoking gun: a page on Microsoft’s site entitled “Macintosh Family Product Support Lifecycle FAQ” that states :

    “Microsoft will continue to provide current assisted support options for Internet Explorer versions 5.1 and 5.2 through December 31, 2005.” [Read and rejoice at http://tinyurl.com/e4qqr]

    I guess this is how Microsoft says, “We’re dropping IE5/Mac completely after 12/31/05.” The text says they will “continue” to release security patches, but it’s not clear if they mean forever or until the drop-dead date.

    Hilariously, Microsoft site search still doesn’t find that page even when you use the page title as the search text.

    So there it is, folks. IE5/Mac is brain dead and Microsoft is pulling the plug. But good luck finding the official announcement.

  22. Mark Johnson

    1018 days ago

    Alternatives to IE5

    This issue came up for me at work on Friday, which is why I did the research. So I’ve also researched alternatives. It’s not at all clear to me which of these alternatives is better or worse than IE5. I’d love to hear feedback on that issue.

    I have a good analogy that might make the point to clients, if not to intransigent users. If your site degrades well, you can say “The information is all there, and it’s all usable. Sorry it’s ugly. But you can’t watch color TV on a black-and-white set. Upgrade your browser if you want it to be prettier.”

    Then send them this:

    Mac OS 8 and 9:

    Mozilla 1.2.1
    http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/mac.html
    Page includes links to helper applications. Unofficial 1.3.1 available.

    Netscape 7.0 (Mac OS 8 and 9)
    http://browser.netscape.com/ns8/download/archive70x.jsp
    We explicitly do not support Netscape 4.x browsers on any
    platform.

    Opera 6.03
    http://opera.com/download/index.dml?platform=mac&ver=6.03

    iCab
    http://www.icab.de/

    For OS X:

    Firefox or Mozilla from Mozilla.org: http://www.mozilla.org/

    Firefox: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/
    Mozilla: http://www.mozilla.org/products/mozilla1.x/

    Safari from Apple:
    http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/safari.html

    Camino from caminobrowser.org:
    Camino: http://www.caminobrowser.org/

    Opera:
    http://www.opera.com

    iCab:
    http://www.icab.de/

    With so many free “color TVs” around, how can users complain?

    Finally, you can use an IE5/Mac specific hack to selectively un-hide a div that contains a “Your browser will self-destruct in 5 seconds” message, with a link to a page that explains why the user will be happier if they upgrade.

  23. Blair

    1018 days ago

    Here’s to hoping 10.5 not only doesn’t include IE/Mac, but also breaks it. I mean, let’s face, it, Apple has never had a problem with modifying the OS such that various applications simply stop working after doing an upgrade. Maybe 10.5 will do the same for IE/Mac.

    Until then, grin and bear it. Those clients that agree to let IE/Mac be unsupported, and then do a 180, will/would likely do the same exact turn-about for some other matter—it’s part of doing business, no matter what your industry.

    With regards to convincing people to upgrade, it’s really not worth the effort. Let’s face facts:

    1) Mac users (myself included) are a minority.

    2) New Mac users are unlikely to hunt down and install IE/Mac if they buy a new system, so we need not worry about them.

    3) Existing users who refuse to use anything else are going to encounter more and more sites that simply don’t work the way the expect, either due to a lack of web standards are because you, the designer, filtered IE/Mac out via your stylesheet inclusion. Eventually, some of them will tire and find another browser.

    4) Eventually, IE/Mac will stop working entirely.

    5) There are always people who are unsatisfied. Sure, they’re vocal. Sure, they’re being obstinant and—in our eyes—ridiculous. But they’re part of an ever-shrinking minority, and as any successful business-owner can tell you, there are always clients that you just can’t reach, that you just can’t get. Better to please 99% of the people and have 1% take their loud, complaining, more-trouble-than-they’re-worth mouths elsewhere.

  24. Henrik

    1015 days ago

    Two of the templates that local MSN portals use either hide stylesheets (msn.co.uk, msn.se, among others), from IE 5/Mac or render incorrectly (ch.msn.com, ph.msn.com).
    A few seemingly custom ones don’t render properly either, .e.g msn.co.nz and msn.co.il.

    Since IE’s start page defaults to the local MSN I guess that should help users in these countries realize that they need to look for a new browser.

  25. John Henry Brown

    1014 days ago

    IE 5 with ColorSync turned on is the best browser in the world for shopping for digital cameras. In that state it’s the only browser that uses sRGB as the default profile for untagged web graphics files. Sample photos (any photos) from most digital cameras are technically untagged, although they specify sRGB in their EXIF data. So if you want to read a review and check out the sample photos online and see them as they will look in Photoshop, IE with ColorSync on is your only choice.

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